I know that my friends out west haven’t watched the “Battlestar Galactica” season finale yet, so all I’m gonna say about it is this:
When Baltar is the character who’s on the strongest moral ground, you know you’re seriously being fucked with.
Wanna chit-chat about it? I’m once-in-a-blue-moon opening comments. As per standard operating procedure, comments are moderated. They’ll appear after I approve them. Anything which looks like it might ruin things for those who haven’t watched yet won’t get approved, so don’t bother asking.
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This show is good, really good. I keep expecting it to drop off in quality, but it somehow keeps it going. I’m very glad I started watching it. Thanks for the tip.
mike
Friday, September 23rd, 2005, 11:18 pm
EJO is an amazing actor. The look on his face when he heard that [redacted] was amazing.
Cindy
Friday, September 23rd, 2005, 11:21 pm
The writing just gets better. Everything Kane said tonight was right on, she wasn’t lying to us, it was there all along. Actions have actual consequences on BSG, and it’s very refreshing to see a lack of DXM.
Tom Bridge
Friday, September 23rd, 2005, 11:22 pm
The image of Grace Park covering herself with that motheaten blanket is going to haunt me.
a fan
Friday, September 23rd, 2005, 11:23 pm
I thought it was a nice touch, having Adama’s mistakes come back to haunt him. What was that speech he delivered in the mini, something about how the time comes when you can no longer hide from the things you’ve done?
Michaela
Friday, September 23rd, 2005, 11:29 pm
Doesn’t Roslin have the authority to settle it? Shouldn’t she be making like one phone call and standing everybody down?
Anonymous
Friday, September 23rd, 2005, 11:35 pm
Cain must have just skimmed Galactica’s logs. Because she totally missed the note where it said “Don’t frak with Papi.”
bossu
Friday, September 23rd, 2005, 11:36 pm
Great ep. Too bad the music suxored.
Anonymous
Friday, September 23rd, 2005, 11:40 pm
Aren’t there laws against this kind of cliffhanger? Soemthing about cruel and unusual treatment of a captive audience?
B.F.P.
Friday, September 23rd, 2005, 11:42 pm
my prediction: part two ends with the president congratulating adama on his promotion to admiral lol
Anonymous
Friday, September 23rd, 2005, 11:44 pm
Great episode as usual. Really it should have been longer. The Shield had a 90 minute episode earlier this year, why not BSG?
On one hand the loose grasp on which characters are “good” gets frustrating, on the other hand Ron Moore’s make-the-story-up-as-I-go approach leaves me demanding more.
Seeing that Six on the floor was just heartbreaking, no matter how evil the other versions have been.
Lee J. Cockrell
Friday, September 23rd, 2005, 11:49 pm
If you listen to the podcast, the episode is really 75 minutes long. They didn’t have enough story to pad it out to 90 minutes, so they cut it to 60 for broadcast and will include the 75-minute one on the DVD.
Number Six and a half
Saturday, September 24th, 2005, 12:38 am
The situation on the Pegasus is really just the natural extension of the “cylons are just machines” mentality. How can you torture a machine? How can you abuse a machine? How can you rape a machine, murder a machine, love a machine? They’re just machines, right? So nothing we do to them really matters.
Except when you start thinking that way, when you start drawing lines around who’s human and who’s not, who’s entitled to civil protections and who’s not, you get atrocities like the Pegasus and Auschwitz and Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo Bay.
John
Saturday, September 24th, 2005, 12:42 am
Cain = Bush?
Galveston
Saturday, September 24th, 2005, 12:43 am
On other boards, people are saying this is the best episode of the show ever. I don’t agree. I think they’ve never reproduced the perfect storm that was “33.” But everybody seems to agree that this one was really good.
Michaela
Saturday, September 24th, 2005, 12:46 am
No, Galveston you idiot. Cain isn’t Bush. Cain is Kurtz. Crack a book sometime.
Michaela
Saturday, September 24th, 2005, 12:48 am
Hey, Galveston, if Cain=Bush, then GW would have had the military kick down the doors on Blanco’s office the minute she said “give me 24 hours to think about your offer” and he would have short-dropped the 82nd airborne on Nagin’s ass and hauled him to Gitmo for creating the Mayor Nagin Memorial Motor Pool.
maroon
Probably not the “best” episode… it’s actually hard to pick one because there is no standard story play here. There have been pure action episodes, character play ones, and ones that just defy a single classification.
When Cmdr Adama was shot at the end of last season..it was a gut blow from left field. Nothing telegraphed or really foreshadowed the assassination attempt.
Tonight’s was an exercise in watching the promise of good stuff go bad even while trying to wish differently. And the pressure was relentless.
BTW, I liked the music… BSG has never been shy about using all genres to bring an added emotional dimension.
Darleen
Saturday, September 24th, 2005, 1:43 am
I thought this was by far the best episode of the season. There’s just so many things going on psychologically, it was truly a masterwork of writing. And acting! Grace Park pulling the blanket over her head - was that written in the script? Baltar giving his speech to PegaSix, and when she reaches out and starts nibbling on the piece of fruit, the single tear that rolls down his cheek. The cold-assed no nonsense demeanor of Admiral Cain. Starbuck and Apollo completely talking over, like a pair of lovers (or maybe spoiled children?), when Adama tells them about the transfer.
Also, I have a theory as to what paperwork Cain was working on just before the Cylon attack, and how that was related to the Pegasus’ former XO disobeying her order in the heat of battle and why she felt it necessary to shoot him in the head for that…. ;-)
Paul
Saturday, September 24th, 2005, 2:31 am
Well, First off, does anyone know where the rest of Season 2 went? Season 1 was like 13 episodes. We get 10 for Season 2? WTFrak?
O.K. First off, I’m glad to hear that this had 25 minutes cut, it feels like it….very rushed. Not necessarily in a bad way, in fact it makes more sense. Cain strikes me as a bad commander with a good ship. Rather than keeping her crew together with a sense of family, as Adama has, she’s used (overly) strict discipline. (Colonial fleet, paging Admiral Bligh, Colonial Fleet, paging Admiral Bligh…)
Adama, truth be told, HAD to do otherwise; he’s had to deal with a civilian human fleet. He’s also slipping up a lot here. Notice that when he’s meeting with Starbuck and Apollo, Apollo says EXACTLY what Adama himself should have asked Cain. Immediately.
The cliffhanger also seemed a bit quick, but again, it makes sense in a way. The O.S.(Original series) had a good premise for what went down with the Pegasus. This actually makes sense that it’s rushed to go down in the way that it is.
So how long do we have to wait for Season 3 premiere?
W. Ian Blanton
Saturday, September 24th, 2005, 2:45 am
Well, looks like my first comments were lost, which is annoying.
[As I’ve said like a million times now, comments are moderated. Submitted comments do not just magically appear on the site. They have to go through me first. Ian does not get a gold star in reading this week. —J.]
After thinking about this, I suspect a few things:
I think Cain “lost” her crew, but not how she said she did.
I think that she’s been grabbing Civilians (like her deck chief) and “drafting” them. She’s using ultra-hyper strict military discipline with unsuitable people. For all their posture, the crew of the Pegasus just “feel” wrong. A certain level of brutality in war is to be expected. There’s something wrong here, tho.
Why is Cain attacking “the” Cylon fleet? An Admiral is supposed to think strategically. Harrying an enemy fleet (“The” Cylon fleet? C’mon.) That’s just pointless. It’s something a Captain might do, until they snapped out of (witness Adama in the Mini-series.
I re-iterate - there’s something really wrong on Pegasus. What? Beats me…when does the new season begin, again?
W. Ian Blanton
Saturday, September 24th, 2005, 3:11 am
Coupled with the story that focused on the embedded reporting, this episode brings out the complexity of moral issues that make BSG so powerful. Admiral Cain is doing everything absolutely correctly, in a military sense, in cleaning up what she sees as a case of lax discipline leading to blurring of lines of authority. On the other hand, Adama is doing what is morally correct, adapting his leadership style to the facts on his ship, letting his responsibility for his people dictate his commands. In essence, both leaders are right, and they both know it.
I don’t believe they are making this up as they go. The continuous shifting of moral viewpoints is the heart of the series. What are the Cylons after? What is their plan? How do you treat a genocidal enemy, who seems to be just like you? Is it better to dehumanize the enemy, as commonly happens during total war, or is it better to try to understand them?
I haven’t even started on the implications of the religious issues, the pagan humans vs. the monotheistic Cylons. Truly riveting storytelling that rarely misses it’s mark.
Chris
Saturday, September 24th, 2005, 6:28 am
Jeff,
Is your Mac OK now?
Donna
Donna Armsworthy
Saturday, September 24th, 2005, 8:57 am
Excellent episode but I agree with the post about President Roslin. The Colonial government does have authority (in theory) over the military and you’d think there’d at least be a scene where she steps in and either orders Cain to stand down or promotes Adama to Senior Admiral. True, Cain probably would have ignored her but the scene should still be there.
John, your comment about “when you start drawing lines around who’s human and who’s not” really doesn’t apply because no matter how human they look, the Cylons are machines (Sharon left no doubt about that when she revealed she has a USB port in her arm). Clearly they are sentient machines — very advanced A.I. — but they are not human. And they are responsible for billions of deaths.
Speaking of which, John, for you to mention Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo Bay (where no one died) in the same breath as Auschwitz (where thousands of innocents were murdered) as though they were morally equivalent is astoundingly foolish. I assume you’d also like Adama to wonder “why can’t we all just get along?” with the Cylons.
Kelly Parks
Saturday, September 24th, 2005, 10:47 am
Great ep, of course.
John, I think the moral question is, what does it do to you (as rapist/torturer/abuser) when you inflict torture/rape/abuse on others? When you get to the point where you really CAN think of individuals outside of yourself as “non-humans” or “just machines,” then you have become inhuman yourself.
Part of what makes us human, and humane, is the formation of social bonds. These bonds are reinforced by mores, like the ones that say you shouldn’t force a child to have sex with you (for example, I have the Catholic Church on my mind). When you rationalize doing such things, and then actually do them, and eventually lose all of the built-in inhibitors to such actions that humans should have … then you aren’t a human (in the higher-animal sense) anymore. You become a monster.
The people on the Pegasus were scary, weren’t they?
The episode made me wonder if perhaps there WAS some action on the part of the humans that precipitated the Cylon attack.
Maia
Saturday, September 24th, 2005, 11:02 am
Kelly, the fact that Auschwitz was worse than Guantanamo Bay doesn’t mean Guantanamo Bay wasn’t bad. A concentration camp is a concentration camp, and they’re bad whether the people running them are Americans or not.
Clearly the point here is that neither the humans nor the cylons are just inherently evil. They’re just characters with conflicting moral senses and motivations who run into each other and evil deeds result from the intersection. Just like Christians and Muslims.
“We good, they bad” is a dangerously simplistic way of looking at the world. I’m glad you people can learn that from television, if not from your parents and care-givers.
John
Saturday, September 24th, 2005, 1:01 pm
The only monster I give a shit about is Jeff’s monster cock.
kristin
Saturday, September 24th, 2005, 1:02 pm
Christ on a crutch, all this over a damn TV show? You sheeple and your Desperate Housewives. Sell your televisions! Think for yourselves!
[Bruce has never, ever gotten laid. —J.]
Bruce
Saturday, September 24th, 2005, 1:09 pm
AAAAARRRRRGGGGHHHH!!!
I was doing tech support for a friend’s computer when I HAD planned on going to see “Corpse Bride”, so wound up going to a later show then TOTALLY FORGOT it was the Battlestar Galactica night until the final showing was almost over.
AAAAAARRRRRGGGGGHHHHH!!!!
anachronda
Saturday, September 24th, 2005, 1:42 pm
I am VERY reluctantly addicted to this show. I spend much of it cursing under my breath.
All you Cylon-Lovers remind me of folks who refuse to be rescued because they couldn’t leave their dog behind.
Actually, I’d save the dog before I worried about my killer sex-robot. If I found out my wife was a anthropomorphic dildo, I’d yank her batteries out and dangle them in front of her dying face. That whole story line is just uber-creepy to me.
That said, Cain is a nut, and I’d cap her at the earliest opportunity. You shoot a buddy of mine, and I had better have been about to pull the trigger on him, too, or you’re next.
Want decent Sci-Fi? Firefly. All you’ll ever need.
[“Firefly” was entertaining and cleverly written … and about as emotionally challenging as a wad of cotton candy. Don’t be fooled into thinking that “this is more fun” is the same thing as “this is better.” —J.]
Bane
Saturday, September 24th, 2005, 2:43 pm
Brucey never disappoints, does he?
Brucey, sweetcheeks, fiction has always been used to not only entertain, but to explore themes grounded in the human condition. Now I know there are the tedious “artiste” types who believe the label “art” must only be applied to those things that either are so cryptic that The True Meaning is only known to the “artist” (and those of a superior sensibility) or the piece must be particularly insulting to the vast majority of the people who the “artist” expects to view it.
And I didn’t even get to the tedium part — which infuses much of “art” on places like PBS.
Shakespeare not only wrote pieces with great themes, but he made them entertaining and popular.
I, for one, rarely watch much of what passes for entertainment on commercial TV, but I love BSG because it causes the kind of discussion you see above … that of the nature of humanity/morality/religion/heroism/compassion/justice/hubris/avarice/lust/love/loyalty …
…that IS art.
Darleen
Saturday, September 24th, 2005, 3:03 pm
Bah…that’s like saying you like Shakespeare because of the codpieces. Just embarrassing. Emotions are for women, at least as the primary progenitor of an opinion.
I have been re-soaking my nails in Firefly, lately, preparatory for the movie, and I have even bought and devoured the Wheadon ‘Serenity’ comics (1-3) that take up the gap betwixt the show and the movie.
And if it took one or more of my kid’s kidneys to assure a revival of the show, well, hello dialysis, little fella. Daddy’s got some TV to watch.
Bane
Saturday, September 24th, 2005, 3:20 pm
Interesting how BSG has manipulated us into “our” crew’s mentality — military codes and protocol can be suspended by mutual agreement, the enemy is not always really the enemy, and the family atmosphere works best. Most telling are the scenes of the Cylons in each cell (interestingly enough, both women, in vulnerable and abusive positions) and our visceral reactions. Wonder what Cally would have thought of Six-B’s treatment?
When watching this ep from the Pegasus POV, it occurred to me how off-the-track, in many ways, that our beloved Galactica crew have gotten.
Not arguing for abuse of prisoners, but even Adama has come to regard “our” Cylon almost as a pet (albeit the foamy-mouthed Pit Bull variety) wrt to assigning humanity to an enemy machine, whereas the Pegasi go too far in stripping their own humanity from treatment of same enemy machine.
And sorry, but military justice is by nature and necessity swift and harsh. Tyrol and Helo assaulted fellow officers, killing one (a superior) in the process. Regardless of what he should or should not have been doing, their actions demand swift and severe punishment, mitigated by the judging officers’ perceptions of the situation. My only real gripe with this bit is that we didn’t get to see the trial (if it happened at all), so we have no way of determining if Cain is on the level or not. I suspect we are being led into thinking she is not.
skymuse
Saturday, September 24th, 2005, 3:30 pm
skymuse
My dad used to be Army, 11th Airborne, occupied Japan for a couple of years and a DI at Camp Cooke during Korea.
I remember vividly during Vietnam that my dad was incensed that not one of Lt. Calley’s men refused to obey his orders at My Lai and anyone of them would have been acquited at a Court Martial for disobeying, even if they turned around and shot him. (and he was incensed that not one of these soldiers was held complicit in the massacre because they didn’t do their duty)
He said a soldier is OBLIGATED to disobey orders contrary to military law. Slaughter of civilians and rape OBLIGATE military personnel to interfere and defy even superior officers. Tyrol and Helo were obligated to stop the rape of the enemy prisoner.
From Fisk telling Tighe about Cain’s summary execution to the fact that Adama just knew something was up when Tyrol and Helo were removed from the Galactica, they didn’t show a trial because none was convened. Cain’s conversation was all about “I considered, I judged, I, I, I…” This wasn’t about “harsh” justice, but about despotism.
Add, too, that Cain has ignored both the civilian government which holds jurisdiction over her. She won’t speak with the President and she refuses to supply the civilian fleet.
If you might recall from BSG’s pilot mini-series that Galactica was on the way to mothball status and as such, her personnel were more of the variety — “I only joined up to pay for dental school!” — of non-military-career types who were marking time. Adama has regrets to go around, but he and the rest have been trying to hold onto some semblance of the parts of the old life that allow them to work as a cohesive group — and sometimes that means taking a more pragmatic look than following every subsection filed in triplicate (Frank Burns was funny as a buffoon, but if MASH were not a comedy, his character could have been exceedingly destructive).
Darleen
Saturday, September 24th, 2005, 4:36 pm
I enjoy the complexity of the positions, but I don’t think the Pegasus is going to be around for long. Cain is bringing rigidity into a situation that has required flexibility, and it’s already pushed things to the breaking point. I’m guessing one of two outcomes- Pegasus is destroyed in a Cylon trap (possibly triggered by their half-assed recon mission), or Adama saves the day in such a glaringly obvious fashion that we get some sort of tri-polar power dynamic in the fleet.
Toby Snedecor
Saturday, September 24th, 2005, 10:29 pm
I was thinking about Baltar and his three copies of Six. If he wasn’t lying in the cell, he has come to terms with his original love for Caprica-Six; even though she was a Cylon, he still acknowledges that love. The Imaginary-Six was supposedly installed by Caprica-Six and for all we can see she is a copy of the woman he loved. In the miniseries, we are to presume that the Caprica-Six died to save Baltar from the blast. As we all know from our Cylon-science (and our Tyrol-Boomer-Helo situation) that when one copy dies, the rest of the living ones get her memories.
Wouldn’t it be interesting if somehow the Imaginary-Six could fiddle with the memories of PegaSix to combine what bits of Caprica-Six remain with the new information from Imaginary-Six and recreate the woman (mind & body) that Baltar loved?
It could very well happen when he is working the “carrot” and trying to repair PegaSix’s shattered emotional mind.
R.B. Boyer
Sunday, September 25th, 2005, 12:37 pm
John, your comment “the fact that Auschwitz was worse than Guantanamo Bay doesn’t mean Guantanamo Bay wasn’t bad. A concentration camp is a concentration camp” is apples and oranges nonsense. Auschwitz was a death camp, not a prison. It existed for the express purpose of mass executions. That’s why it was there. Guantanamo, on the other hand, is a prison pure and simple. You can disagree about the reasons for keeping people in prison there but to compare it to a Nazi death camp is insulting to the friends and relatives of those who died there. Don’t twist their horror and tragedy to support your political cause du jour.
And this comment: “Clearly the point here is that neither the humans nor the cylons are just inherently evil” is just plain wrong. Murdering innocents is an inherently evil act. It can’t be justified or forgiven by any “all cultures are equal” philosophizing. The Cylons are trying very hard to exterminate humanity. Do you think we could co-exist with any culture that was motivated by such a desire? Of course not. Just like we can’t co-exist with any group, culture or species that wants to force their way of thinking on us. This isn’t a Christian vs. Muslim thing (a meaningless argument to me — I’m an atheist), it’s a I-want-to-live vs. I-want-you-to-die thing.
Kelly Parks
Sunday, September 25th, 2005, 2:23 pm